Post by thewordiebirdie on Mar 10, 2013 15:54:56 GMT -5
I wanted to post this up here, because I think it ended up being a really interesting conversation, and I'd like to see what you think of it. Two women, from different backgrounds and perspectives, respectfully arguing about MSCSI's perceived agenda, and the comics industry as a whole. Check it out:
Elsa: Am I the only one that winches at the whole concept of this? Rather than addressing the real problem they further the segregation with just an other stereotype. Which makes them using this whole "there's no comics for girls" and "girls don't read comics/go to comic stores" as marketing technique -besides wrong- a little offensive.
It's always a bit irksome if a guy claims he'll reinvent comics for girls anyway (and then goes around the internet claiming to have reinvented the wheel. Does he even -read- other webcomics?).
That being said, I gave the comic a chance when they released it and I just wasn't that impressed. The characters are unmemorable the writing a little cheesy and there's some weird stuff going on with phasing. The art was good and I didn't mind it as a whole, but the overly positive reviews (like.. really really positive... like, so positive I almost threw up a little bit
) made me expect a lot more.
Call me bitter, but I'm just not a fan of being force-fed the whole double agenda thing, opposed to a sincere demonstration that interesting female characters can be written (as has been done by others who didn't make a huge deal out of it).
Riven: Hi Elsa, I don't think you're bitter at all. I'm a member of the team behind this comic, and I think it's a real shame that the hoo-hah surrounding our project has put you off enjoying the comic itself. I have been pretty unnerved at the level of positive response we received from the critics honestly; I have found myself waiting for the bubble to burst, so thank you [honestly] for popping it If you like, I would actually love to talk about this with you - could you elaborate on what you mean by us 'furthering the segregation with just another stereotype'?
Elsa: Hi, thanks for the reply and being so relaxed about it.
By furthering the segregation, I mean that in my opinion the problem of absurd sexualization of women in comics and the often superficiality of their personalities, isn't at all helped by creating a comic that is especially written for women. It sooner widens the gap between "normal" comic readers and girls that are comic-curious or already enthusiast about comics, since it's being sold as if female comic-readers somehow have special needs.
What I think actually does help is writing good stories with convincing and interesting characters indifferent of their sexe, without the very strong emphasis on "how special it is to have a female character in the lead". Because it really isn't -that- special (this is even more true for webcomics), and more importantly, it shouldn't be.
I very much like to believe that the intentions behind the project are sincere and I'm convinced there's an audience for it (obviously you guys have proven that), but the way the webcomic is being promoted leaves a bit of a sour taste. Especially the idea that there is nothing out there besides 'My so called secret identity' for us comic-loving girls, which is just untrue on so many levels.
Small disclaimer (just in case). My quarrel isn't with comics written for/targeted at girls/women in general, which of course is a-ok. Only with the way it's being promoted/marketed - which seems to be the dominant reason for all the attention it's getting.
Riven: no worries - I work on this comic for free, and I do so because it means I get an opportunity to talk to people about comics, which we're doing, and I absolutely believe that you can always learn something from someone who disagrees with you, so I want to learn: how would you change our approach?
We've described being die hard fans of comics - which the majority of the team are - in our interviews, and that MSCSI came out of a perceived lack based on personal experiences; we've also mentioned elsewhere that the range of standout female characters in mainstream western superhero comics is far narrower than for male characters, and we want to help broaden that range a little. That has clearly gotten muddied along the way, so if you were me, and this were your comic, how would you promote it?
Elsa: That's a admirable approach to disagreement . I'm by no means authority on the subject by the way. In fact, I'm reasonably newbie in the comic industries. Before my comic project I worked in the game industry however and a lot of the issues there are exactly the same. (and I feel exactly the same way about the industries efforts to make "games for girls", which are generally horrible.)
You ask me a tricky question, because how to promote the comic depends largely on what you want to achieve. What you guys are doing is obviously very effective in terms of numbers and creating media buzz. If this is what you're after, then you are on the right track it seems. If it were my comic and my focus was on making a difference in the way women are represented in comic, I would go about things differently indeed (but then again, I wouldn't set out on that premise in the first place).
I do acknowledge that there's a problem with female representation in the medium. It's a real issue and it should be addressed, but demonizing the comic industry probably isn't going to help. Nor is further discouraging girls to check out mainstream comic's/comicstores with statements like “All the comics on the shelves were featuring women as pin-ups – women with their boobs out, or their clothes falling off … If someone like me feels uncomfortable walking into a comic shop, it’s no wonder most teenage girls and adult women wouldn’t set foot inside one.”
Are strong female characters Under-represented in comics, yes. Unique? By no means. Presenting the concept of a female lead character in comics as unique, probably isn't the most encouraging way to get girls into comics (because if MSCSI was indeed unique in it's kind, what else is there for them to check out?). And that's a shame. Even in mainstream comics there's gems to be discovered. SAGA and the Glory reboot are two recent examples of well written and drawn mainstream comics featuring strong interesting female-leads.
Like I said before, this 'not unique' thing is even more true for webcomics. The Meek, Unsounded, Everblue, The phoenix requiem, The Forgotten Order, Plume, Strays, Fey Winds, 6-Commando, Monsieur Charlatan, Dresden Codac, Roza, reMIND, Gunnerkrigg Court... and so on. These are just a few titles that come to mind when I think of just long-form webcomics starring one or more great female characters in their main cast (in most of these as lead). None of their creators make a big fuzz about it, although I'm sure most -if not all- of them are aware of the issue in the industry. Instead, they focus on telling their story, creating interesting believable characters and worlds, and let -that- sell their comic. Proving that it isn't that hard or special to make a female character that isn't just a balloon-boob trophy. When you set out to create a story and try so very hard to have it push an agenda, this rarely has a positive effect on the quality, and for me it took a lot of enjoyment out of reading the comic (not the hoo-haa, that just raised the expectations).
As for my own comic, I do get compliments on writing a believable female cast and having a female main character in my comic. And if asked, I will gladly engage in discussion on under-representation of well written females characters in comics. I even drop notes about it sometimes (pitch the hawk-eye initiative or link to a funny Escher-girl post, stuff like that). I could have made a big selling point out of it if I wanted. To me having a cast that includes women with actual personalities and purpose, is the normal state of things, so screaming of the rooftops about how special I am for writing things the way I do would feel awkward to me, and I would feel like I'm doing a disservice to my colleges who are also rocking it.
On a positive note, I think we're both on the same side, we just use different methods, and in the bigger picture that's probably a good thing (as we need different methods for different audiences).
Longpost is long
Riven: wow, long comment is indeed long. Thank you for taking the time to engage with me like this, I'm finding it really interesting.
To address a few points in turn:
re: comicshops - the comment you've highlighted is from Will, our writer, and his experience in that particular comicbook shop was not a good one, and I don't think he's been back in one since. I think that's a shame, but I can sympathize. I have had very mixed experiences in comic stores, with some treating me like a hostile invader, and some giving me a quick grilling on the basics before wholeheartedly accepting me as one of their gang. I think that one of the best and worst things about comics and sequential art is the surrounding culture: you have to earn your place within it. There are self-appointed gatekeepers, and understandably so, because the propensity of episodic narratives in any format is to encourage a deep emotional connection between the reader and the core characters. So a lifelong fan who has loved Judge Dredd, for example, is going to be a little irked by someone buying a t-shirt after watching the latest film, and claiming that they are on the same 'fan level'. There will always be potential tensions, but my experience has taught me that if you approach with some respect, and prove you're willing to learn, these gatekeepers are more than happy to share their accrued knowledge with you - they've been waiting to do so, in some instances.
However, the existence of this sort of trial at a new fan's entry into the culture is daunting; I've definitely found it to be, and I imagine that you have experienced similar. A lot of the people reading MSCSI seem to be people that would not have picked up a comic normally, because they either didn't think that there was anything within comics that would have interested them, or they came up against a barrier to this new medium they're interested in, and they've withdrawn. To acknowledge this barrier is certainly not intended to demonize the comics industry, because I feel that having that barrier there encourages people to research, to read widely, and to want to prove that they belong. This has been my experience at least, and I have felt warmly accepted once I've managed to get past that initial checkpoint.
re: established strong female characters - I'm going to be honest, I haven't heard of the webcomics you've mentioned, but then my chosen play-area of the comics industry is small press, indie comics and zines. I'm now really glad we're having this conversation, because I can now go off with a long list of things to check out. Which brings me to my second point. The comics industry is so wide-ranging, so diverse, and in such continual flux that it is hard to know where to start and what to look for without a guide. My personal aim with MSCSI is that we build up a community around the comic [which we are already doing, with our own forum and social media platforms], so that people can talk about other comics as well as ours, and that MSCSI can be a leaping off point for people to explore other female-led comics that they may not otherwise have encountered. I have boxes of comics that you or my fellow team-members will never have heard of, and I want to be able to share and champion them. I would LOVE to find out that we are absolutely surrounded by amazingly written female characters and were nowhere near rare, because then I could get together a stack of comics that really spoke to me, instead of scrabbling around and making do with things I simply 'liked'.
With regards to your comments about us having an agenda - all of my favourite episodic narratives , all of them have an agenda. Let me use Buffy as an example, because she's been a massive influence on many of the MSCSI Team, and there is a parallel in both the approach and the intention behind it between Buffy and MSCSI [I'm not trying to argue that we are on the same level in terms of calibre, that's not for me to say]: both projects are produced by a man who was tired of seeing the same narrow type of representation being trotted out again and again. Both men deliberately inverted the archetype that had irked them into action, and have been vocal about having a feminist agenda behind their decision to do so. Another example I could use would be Chris Carter writing Scully as a deliberate inversion of the intuitive, easily led female supporting role. These are our influences, and aspirations.
There are many projects that start out as simply wanting to tell a good story well, but I don't consider that one approach is necessarily better than the other; either you risk not getting your voice heard over the chorus of fellow creators who also have a new project they're passionate about and want you to read, or you risk people being put off by the angle you choose to try and catch their attention with. We can only be honest about the driving force behind our venture, and hope that our intentions and our love for the surrounding culture can win over any doubters or fence-sitters. You say that to you, having a cast of women with personalities and purpose is the norm for you; it has not been for us, and this is why we're working on our comic. I would hate to think of anyone perceiving us as saying we are doing a better job than any other creators out there. It's ironic we're having this discussion in the comments of an interview where we've highlighted who our favourite writers are, and how we look up to people like Gail Simone and Faith Erin Hicks - when I posted this interview on the FB page I pulled out the following quote from Will that goes against what you perceive us as doing - 'When you write a superhero story in 2013, even if you are trying to subvert or challenge some of the conventions, you are standing on the shoulders of giants — and yes, I think we are indebted to the work of female creators and their achievements'.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, thank you for debating this with me. Tell me some comics to read, and I will check them out - I've already started reading Spindrift, and I like it so far - and I'll pass them on to our fans and followers. Come talk to us in the MSCSI forum, if you like: we really enjoy intellectual discussions and we always want to talk about what comics to read, whose artwork to check out. Come show us some other female characters to identify with and aspire to, and we will honestly adore you for it. X
Elsa: Thanks for getting back to me. I really appreciate getting a view on these things from your perspective. I actually empathize and agree with a lot of the things you say.
Thankfully I never had any negative experience with any comicstores, or fandoms that I had to earn my place into. Besides selling US comics most of the comicstores here also have a large (often even bigger) assortment of Graphic novels and a variety of locally created and indie comics which broadens the audience a lot. Lots of shops here employ female staff too. I can imagine that these gatekeepers you speak off are a barrier in some parts of the comic culture though.
For me there's a difference between acknowledging something (which I have no problem with) and building a marketing on or product around the same issue. The second thing doesn't always have to be bad but there is a risk of the message becoming obnoxious and getting in the way of the story.
Buffy and Scully are indeed great and admirable characters, but when I watched these series years ago I never got the feeling that the creators are constantly trying to teach me something about women's representation in the media. Nor was the focus of their promotion on being a special 'women friendly' series. That didn't make them any less effective though.
As for the webcomics list, I'm sorry to hear that you didn't know any of these titles yet, but I'm glad I opened that door and I hope that it will help to give a some context to the state and diversity of this wonderful webcomic scene .
If you are interested I would also encourage you to check out earthsongsaga.com/tomgeeks.php as well. All these webcomics are made by female creators (including the tomgeeks comic itself).
I'm certainly going to keep an eye out for MSCSI and I'm curious to see how it develops, as a project but also as a story. I'll also take a peek at the forums.
She friended me on Facebook after that last comment, and her comic can be read here: www.spindrift-comic.com/
So, what are your thoughts on this discussion?
Elsa: Am I the only one that winches at the whole concept of this? Rather than addressing the real problem they further the segregation with just an other stereotype. Which makes them using this whole "there's no comics for girls" and "girls don't read comics/go to comic stores" as marketing technique -besides wrong- a little offensive.
It's always a bit irksome if a guy claims he'll reinvent comics for girls anyway (and then goes around the internet claiming to have reinvented the wheel. Does he even -read- other webcomics?).
That being said, I gave the comic a chance when they released it and I just wasn't that impressed. The characters are unmemorable the writing a little cheesy and there's some weird stuff going on with phasing. The art was good and I didn't mind it as a whole, but the overly positive reviews (like.. really really positive... like, so positive I almost threw up a little bit
) made me expect a lot more.Call me bitter, but I'm just not a fan of being force-fed the whole double agenda thing, opposed to a sincere demonstration that interesting female characters can be written (as has been done by others who didn't make a huge deal out of it).
Riven: Hi Elsa, I don't think you're bitter at all. I'm a member of the team behind this comic, and I think it's a real shame that the hoo-hah surrounding our project has put you off enjoying the comic itself. I have been pretty unnerved at the level of positive response we received from the critics honestly; I have found myself waiting for the bubble to burst, so thank you [honestly] for popping it If you like, I would actually love to talk about this with you - could you elaborate on what you mean by us 'furthering the segregation with just another stereotype'?
Elsa: Hi, thanks for the reply and being so relaxed about it.
By furthering the segregation, I mean that in my opinion the problem of absurd sexualization of women in comics and the often superficiality of their personalities, isn't at all helped by creating a comic that is especially written for women. It sooner widens the gap between "normal" comic readers and girls that are comic-curious or already enthusiast about comics, since it's being sold as if female comic-readers somehow have special needs.
What I think actually does help is writing good stories with convincing and interesting characters indifferent of their sexe, without the very strong emphasis on "how special it is to have a female character in the lead". Because it really isn't -that- special (this is even more true for webcomics), and more importantly, it shouldn't be.
I very much like to believe that the intentions behind the project are sincere and I'm convinced there's an audience for it (obviously you guys have proven that), but the way the webcomic is being promoted leaves a bit of a sour taste. Especially the idea that there is nothing out there besides 'My so called secret identity' for us comic-loving girls, which is just untrue on so many levels.
Small disclaimer (just in case). My quarrel isn't with comics written for/targeted at girls/women in general, which of course is a-ok. Only with the way it's being promoted/marketed - which seems to be the dominant reason for all the attention it's getting.
Riven: no worries - I work on this comic for free, and I do so because it means I get an opportunity to talk to people about comics, which we're doing, and I absolutely believe that you can always learn something from someone who disagrees with you, so I want to learn: how would you change our approach?
We've described being die hard fans of comics - which the majority of the team are - in our interviews, and that MSCSI came out of a perceived lack based on personal experiences; we've also mentioned elsewhere that the range of standout female characters in mainstream western superhero comics is far narrower than for male characters, and we want to help broaden that range a little. That has clearly gotten muddied along the way, so if you were me, and this were your comic, how would you promote it?
Elsa: That's a admirable approach to disagreement . I'm by no means authority on the subject by the way. In fact, I'm reasonably newbie in the comic industries. Before my comic project I worked in the game industry however and a lot of the issues there are exactly the same. (and I feel exactly the same way about the industries efforts to make "games for girls", which are generally horrible.)
You ask me a tricky question, because how to promote the comic depends largely on what you want to achieve. What you guys are doing is obviously very effective in terms of numbers and creating media buzz. If this is what you're after, then you are on the right track it seems. If it were my comic and my focus was on making a difference in the way women are represented in comic, I would go about things differently indeed (but then again, I wouldn't set out on that premise in the first place).
I do acknowledge that there's a problem with female representation in the medium. It's a real issue and it should be addressed, but demonizing the comic industry probably isn't going to help. Nor is further discouraging girls to check out mainstream comic's/comicstores with statements like “All the comics on the shelves were featuring women as pin-ups – women with their boobs out, or their clothes falling off … If someone like me feels uncomfortable walking into a comic shop, it’s no wonder most teenage girls and adult women wouldn’t set foot inside one.”
Are strong female characters Under-represented in comics, yes. Unique? By no means. Presenting the concept of a female lead character in comics as unique, probably isn't the most encouraging way to get girls into comics (because if MSCSI was indeed unique in it's kind, what else is there for them to check out?). And that's a shame. Even in mainstream comics there's gems to be discovered. SAGA and the Glory reboot are two recent examples of well written and drawn mainstream comics featuring strong interesting female-leads.
Like I said before, this 'not unique' thing is even more true for webcomics. The Meek, Unsounded, Everblue, The phoenix requiem, The Forgotten Order, Plume, Strays, Fey Winds, 6-Commando, Monsieur Charlatan, Dresden Codac, Roza, reMIND, Gunnerkrigg Court... and so on. These are just a few titles that come to mind when I think of just long-form webcomics starring one or more great female characters in their main cast (in most of these as lead). None of their creators make a big fuzz about it, although I'm sure most -if not all- of them are aware of the issue in the industry. Instead, they focus on telling their story, creating interesting believable characters and worlds, and let -that- sell their comic. Proving that it isn't that hard or special to make a female character that isn't just a balloon-boob trophy. When you set out to create a story and try so very hard to have it push an agenda, this rarely has a positive effect on the quality, and for me it took a lot of enjoyment out of reading the comic (not the hoo-haa, that just raised the expectations).
As for my own comic, I do get compliments on writing a believable female cast and having a female main character in my comic. And if asked, I will gladly engage in discussion on under-representation of well written females characters in comics. I even drop notes about it sometimes (pitch the hawk-eye initiative or link to a funny Escher-girl post, stuff like that). I could have made a big selling point out of it if I wanted. To me having a cast that includes women with actual personalities and purpose, is the normal state of things, so screaming of the rooftops about how special I am for writing things the way I do would feel awkward to me, and I would feel like I'm doing a disservice to my colleges who are also rocking it.
On a positive note, I think we're both on the same side, we just use different methods, and in the bigger picture that's probably a good thing (as we need different methods for different audiences).
Longpost is long
Riven: wow, long comment is indeed long. Thank you for taking the time to engage with me like this, I'm finding it really interesting.
To address a few points in turn:
re: comicshops - the comment you've highlighted is from Will, our writer, and his experience in that particular comicbook shop was not a good one, and I don't think he's been back in one since. I think that's a shame, but I can sympathize. I have had very mixed experiences in comic stores, with some treating me like a hostile invader, and some giving me a quick grilling on the basics before wholeheartedly accepting me as one of their gang. I think that one of the best and worst things about comics and sequential art is the surrounding culture: you have to earn your place within it. There are self-appointed gatekeepers, and understandably so, because the propensity of episodic narratives in any format is to encourage a deep emotional connection between the reader and the core characters. So a lifelong fan who has loved Judge Dredd, for example, is going to be a little irked by someone buying a t-shirt after watching the latest film, and claiming that they are on the same 'fan level'. There will always be potential tensions, but my experience has taught me that if you approach with some respect, and prove you're willing to learn, these gatekeepers are more than happy to share their accrued knowledge with you - they've been waiting to do so, in some instances.
However, the existence of this sort of trial at a new fan's entry into the culture is daunting; I've definitely found it to be, and I imagine that you have experienced similar. A lot of the people reading MSCSI seem to be people that would not have picked up a comic normally, because they either didn't think that there was anything within comics that would have interested them, or they came up against a barrier to this new medium they're interested in, and they've withdrawn. To acknowledge this barrier is certainly not intended to demonize the comics industry, because I feel that having that barrier there encourages people to research, to read widely, and to want to prove that they belong. This has been my experience at least, and I have felt warmly accepted once I've managed to get past that initial checkpoint.
re: established strong female characters - I'm going to be honest, I haven't heard of the webcomics you've mentioned, but then my chosen play-area of the comics industry is small press, indie comics and zines. I'm now really glad we're having this conversation, because I can now go off with a long list of things to check out. Which brings me to my second point. The comics industry is so wide-ranging, so diverse, and in such continual flux that it is hard to know where to start and what to look for without a guide. My personal aim with MSCSI is that we build up a community around the comic [which we are already doing, with our own forum and social media platforms], so that people can talk about other comics as well as ours, and that MSCSI can be a leaping off point for people to explore other female-led comics that they may not otherwise have encountered. I have boxes of comics that you or my fellow team-members will never have heard of, and I want to be able to share and champion them. I would LOVE to find out that we are absolutely surrounded by amazingly written female characters and were nowhere near rare, because then I could get together a stack of comics that really spoke to me, instead of scrabbling around and making do with things I simply 'liked'.
With regards to your comments about us having an agenda - all of my favourite episodic narratives , all of them have an agenda. Let me use Buffy as an example, because she's been a massive influence on many of the MSCSI Team, and there is a parallel in both the approach and the intention behind it between Buffy and MSCSI [I'm not trying to argue that we are on the same level in terms of calibre, that's not for me to say]: both projects are produced by a man who was tired of seeing the same narrow type of representation being trotted out again and again. Both men deliberately inverted the archetype that had irked them into action, and have been vocal about having a feminist agenda behind their decision to do so. Another example I could use would be Chris Carter writing Scully as a deliberate inversion of the intuitive, easily led female supporting role. These are our influences, and aspirations.
There are many projects that start out as simply wanting to tell a good story well, but I don't consider that one approach is necessarily better than the other; either you risk not getting your voice heard over the chorus of fellow creators who also have a new project they're passionate about and want you to read, or you risk people being put off by the angle you choose to try and catch their attention with. We can only be honest about the driving force behind our venture, and hope that our intentions and our love for the surrounding culture can win over any doubters or fence-sitters. You say that to you, having a cast of women with personalities and purpose is the norm for you; it has not been for us, and this is why we're working on our comic. I would hate to think of anyone perceiving us as saying we are doing a better job than any other creators out there. It's ironic we're having this discussion in the comments of an interview where we've highlighted who our favourite writers are, and how we look up to people like Gail Simone and Faith Erin Hicks - when I posted this interview on the FB page I pulled out the following quote from Will that goes against what you perceive us as doing - 'When you write a superhero story in 2013, even if you are trying to subvert or challenge some of the conventions, you are standing on the shoulders of giants — and yes, I think we are indebted to the work of female creators and their achievements'.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, thank you for debating this with me. Tell me some comics to read, and I will check them out - I've already started reading Spindrift, and I like it so far - and I'll pass them on to our fans and followers. Come talk to us in the MSCSI forum, if you like: we really enjoy intellectual discussions and we always want to talk about what comics to read, whose artwork to check out. Come show us some other female characters to identify with and aspire to, and we will honestly adore you for it. X
Elsa: Thanks for getting back to me. I really appreciate getting a view on these things from your perspective. I actually empathize and agree with a lot of the things you say.
Thankfully I never had any negative experience with any comicstores, or fandoms that I had to earn my place into. Besides selling US comics most of the comicstores here also have a large (often even bigger) assortment of Graphic novels and a variety of locally created and indie comics which broadens the audience a lot. Lots of shops here employ female staff too. I can imagine that these gatekeepers you speak off are a barrier in some parts of the comic culture though.
For me there's a difference between acknowledging something (which I have no problem with) and building a marketing on or product around the same issue. The second thing doesn't always have to be bad but there is a risk of the message becoming obnoxious and getting in the way of the story.
Buffy and Scully are indeed great and admirable characters, but when I watched these series years ago I never got the feeling that the creators are constantly trying to teach me something about women's representation in the media. Nor was the focus of their promotion on being a special 'women friendly' series. That didn't make them any less effective though.
As for the webcomics list, I'm sorry to hear that you didn't know any of these titles yet, but I'm glad I opened that door and I hope that it will help to give a some context to the state and diversity of this wonderful webcomic scene .
If you are interested I would also encourage you to check out earthsongsaga.com/tomgeeks.php as well. All these webcomics are made by female creators (including the tomgeeks comic itself).
I'm certainly going to keep an eye out for MSCSI and I'm curious to see how it develops, as a project but also as a story. I'll also take a peek at the forums.
She friended me on Facebook after that last comment, and her comic can be read here: www.spindrift-comic.com/
So, what are your thoughts on this discussion?
